Mom Arrested for Washing Kid's Mouth With Soap - News- msnbc.com

So should we allow our kids to swear?

No. My former niece has 2 boys, 5 and 2 years. She and her family think it's hilarious to hear them use foul language, and God help you if you confront her about it. Her mouth is just as filthy as theirs.

My children never cursed, they knew better. All I had to do is give them "The Look" and they clammed up.

She should have used dawn dish liquid. One squirt would have done it.............

What are we going to do let kids run over us?  No we shouldn't allow our kids to swear at us.

Washing a kids mouth out with soap is potentially very dangerous. Ingestion of even a small amount of Dawn, as one poster suggested, can cause serious vomiting and diarrhea, and dehydration as a result. Some ingredients in bar soaps can cause issues when just used topically, do we want our kids to ingest stuff like that? Surely intelligent creative parents can come up with better ways to deal with problem behavior than intentionally causing slow poisoning and stomach/intestinal illnesses?

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/06/03/29/the-health-and-beauty-dangers-of-common-soap--amp-a-top-recommended-alternative.htm

http://www.pg.com/content/pdf/01_about_pg/msds/fabric_and_homecare/dishwashing_products/Ultra_Dawn.pdf

Bull@!$%#.

I hardly ever have to take corrective action on my kids but if they push the line they know that nothing is out of limits.

Nothing at all, Jason?

Nope. I pride myself on being creative. I'm 38 and my oldest son is 15. In all I think I have had to punish my son three times. I'm the guy who if a kid takes a piece of candy without buying it marches the kid in and has him apoligize to the clerk and everyone in the store for being a thief. I'm the guy that beat that punk ass kids ass when he tried to steal his car. I've chased down two kids who stole a piece of crap skateboard and hauled him them over to their Dad's house by the scruff of their neck. I'm also the guy who saved a kid from being killed by his father and took the kid in for six months while the state found him the best home they could. I've been shot at twice and stabbed once.

Most people know I look out for my neighborhood. You go speeding down my street I go knocking on your door with a baseball bat and a shotgun. You speed down my street twice I destroy your car.

Are we going to let government tell us how to raise our children?

It would happen to be so, and ya wonder why kids are so messed up

NO DISCIPLINE. Governments won't do it, parents are not allowed to do it.

Might as well have a kid and put it into a Government agency and protection since parents cannot do much of anything.

And those sound like very reasonable responses, Jason, however to say nothing is out of limits in reference to potential punishment implies something a bit more ominous.

Kshark, I've been raising kids for 18 years now, including stepchildren who I got when they were 10 and 9. They are now 24 and 23, both married and in college, one with a new baby. My other kids are 18, 13, and 8. I've seen just about everything there is to see and I have never needed to wash anyone's mouth out with soap, force them to eat hot spices, or physically disciplined in any way that would be considered abusive. When people tie kids up, beat them, starve them, force them to do any number of unimaginable things, yes we do allow the government to step in and enforce regulations concerning what you do with your kids. I am telling you, from experience, there are so many other ways to deal with "discipline" that there is simply no need to resort to mild poisoning, forced spice ingestion, or hitting, all of which can easily transgress from "discipline" into abuse. If we treat children reasonably, including listening to them, and discussing with them why the rules are what they are and why we all follow them, and even when it might be a good idea not to follow the rules they will grow up to be reasonable and reasoning adults. Not to mention kids who understand and are listened to in turn usually avoid many of the missteps and rebellions that make parents think they need to resort to physical intimidation in the first place.

Liberal Madmama--

Welcome to 2009 life has changed.

I came from an abused background and I don't think that gives anybody an excuse to abuse their children. It's a cop out.

My opinion is that physical punishment should be the very last thing in your list of punishments. I've spanked my oldest I think once and knocked him on the ground a second. My girl got it once and that was enough. My youngest has never been spanked and he's nine. The other two have let him on that what Mom and Dad say's goes.

Children need structure and stability. Once you give them that then that's 90% of the battle. As they grow you have to allow them the freedom to make certain choices and then talk about those choices be it good or bad. Show them examples. See a teenage mother ask her how life has been. Let them know that you were once a kid too and don't be afraid to be a kid again. If a kid is swearing where did they learn it from?

Being a Parent is a job. Most Parents forget that little part. How you act in front of your kids is how they are going to act. So if your not up to the job of being a parent then don't be one. Even the richest person on earth can be the crappiest parent ever and the poorest person on earth can be the greatest parent.

Every age has it's challenges and some are more difficult than the next. I love that my kids are becoming teenagers and adults. They make me proud every day I look at them. They are strong, bright, loving, and much better than I ever was or could be. Kids always understand more than what you think and if you challenge them they will not only meet your challenge but exceed it.

Kshark, I live in 2009, am currently still raising children in 2009. What has changed that justifies physical intimidation of small children, most especially 8 year olds as the girl in the article was? I just don't see the necessity, and as I have said I've seen most everything when it comes to child rearing.

Jason, I absolutely agree with you. It is a job, and a parent's behavior has everything to do with the child's. Especially this part: "Children need structure and stability. Once you give them that then that's 90% of the battle."

Jason Burnham and Liberal Madmama: I agree with everything you two are writing. BUT - I have also been part of the lives of children who have never been abused, never suffered hunger, and had all the love, structure and stability any human could ever want. Then one day they decided to 'do what I want and you can't stop me'. No matter what age a child is, when/if this occurs, a parents job is set the limits and teach the child self discipline. Not all children rebel. Not all children follow the rules.

This mother may have reached her wits end. What the article does not say is how many time outs, groundings, lectures, etc this young girl received. It does say that after the mother used soap to punish her daughter she became so scared by the after effects she took her daughter to the ER and told them what had happened. I do not believe a truly abusive parent would have taken the child to the ER and admitted to their involvement. Both the woman and child in this article have learned (and are still learning) a very hard lesson.

PS: Yes I have used dawn dish soap. One small squirt and they are free to go. They typically run to the bath room and spend the next 30 minutes rinsing their mouths out to get rid of the taste. Have never had anyone suffer diarrhea or nausea. Although I did have one who came out after about 15 minutes of rinsing and preceded to demonstrate that he could now blow bubbles, learned that using that method on him was about useless........

countrycomfort, I agree with this "a parents job is set the limits and teach the child self discipline." I just don't agree that physical intimidation is the right way to do this. Time outs, groundings, and lectures aren't actual communication. Actual communication requires listening as much as speaking on the part of the parent. Too many people are caught up in some idea of how parents should behave that they forget they are interacting with another human being and not just "raising a child". We love to tell our kids that respect is earned all the while disrespecting them by using coercion and intimidation in our daily interactions. You can love your kids until your heart breaks, but if you never hear them they will be frustrated, and they will act out. The article also doesn't mention what the girl was feeling when she acted out. This isn't just a "bad kid", she is a human being, with all of the complexities of thought that reflects. My kids are who they are because I have always listened to what they had to say about a situation, and taken the time to discuss the possible outcomes of their actions.

Now, understand I'm not trying to claim to be a perfect parent. I was young and inexperienced when I started raising kids, just like most people are. I resorted to spankings in the past myself. What I am saying is that I have learned that listening and communicating has a bigger and better impact on children than any of the physical intimidation I ever tried did. And that not listening cannot be mitigated by any form of punishment, nor any amount of love. Children are people, too, and should be treated as such.

Children are people, too, and should be treated as such.

Yep. Listening, talking to, discussions all are part of good parenting. Communication is one of the most important parts of society as whole. But just as a judge and jury must sometimes make hard decisions about a defendant, parents must sometimes make those same hard decisions. Corporal punishment is not for everyone and should never be used unless all other forms of communication/punishment have failed. I view discussion over grounding, grounding over soap, soap over a slap in the face. I earned all levels of punishment growing up and one lesson I learned was there is consequences to all actions and the consequences get worse with the repeat of each unacceptable action.

I want to tell a story here, a personal anecdote. When my stepson was 12, I had only been in his life for 2 years and he had been living with us full time for all of that time. He was sneaking a girl into his room at night. He had a basement room with a big, under the stairs closet, and he would bring her in through the window after we went to bed and let her sleep on a pallet he made up in his closet. We only found out about it because the police got involved after finding a small camp she had set up in the woods out back of our house and my stepson broke down and admitted to it when they questioned him. Now most parents would be extremely angry about this kind of thing, they would give an angry lecture and perhaps ground their kid. More physically aggressive parents might even smack him around a little bit, I've seen that more times than I care to admit. What we did was make a pot of coffee and sit down at the table with him to hear him out about what was going on. The girl was a friend from school who came to him for help. Her new stepfather was abusive, and worse when her mother wasn't around, and her mom didn't believe her. My stepson was doing what he thought was best by giving her a safe place to go at night, and he didn't know if he could come to us with the problem. Because the police got involved after she ran away the girl did get the help she needed, thank goodness. And because we didn't blow up at him my stepson learned that if he ever had a problem like that again he could come to us and we would help him and any other child that needed it. We discussed the fact that as adults we knew who to call to get the girl some help, and that if he had brought her to us we would have made sure the right people got involved to get her out of that living situation, even if it meant getting her her own lawyer. We didn't punish him for this, he had made a reasoned decision based on the information that he had to help someone in need to the best of his abilities. That is what we were raising them to be, people who use what they have to make the best decisions they can. There was no way I was going to punish him for having decent instincts and wanting to help others. Now I know many parents wouldn't see it that way, would in fact feel that discipline was required because of his dishonesty. We felt that he did the best thing he could have, given what he knew at the time. We listened to him, and he listened to us when we explained that in the future he could always bring his problems to us and we would not just have a knee jerk reaction, that we would do everything we could to help. And he understood the importance of letting adults he trusted in on what was going on in his life because sometimes we have better resources, and we could have avoided having the police involved in that way, perhaps by involving them voluntarily earlier on. He never snuck anybody into the house again, but we did have kids stay with us at various points in time because they needed somewhere to be.

I knew there was a reason I respected you! Trust, respect, and communication goes a very long way.

Aww, shucks. LOL. No, really, thank you for that. Some people (within our own family) thought we should have punished him severely for doing that, but it just seemed counter productive to do that when our goal was to raise a smart, thinking adult person.

The decisions made by parents are usually made with the childs 'nature' in mind. I remember having to dole out punishment to two young boys for the same problem after discussing it with them several times. One boy was given what would now be considered a time out (sat in the corner back then). The other had to do yard work. Reason for the difference was the one in time out loved the out doors and would mow the lawn for fun - the other would sit still for hours and day dream. The biggest part of the punishment was knowing that the other was getting to do what they wanted to do! After the punishment was completed a discussion was again initiated to try and find out how they felt and what they had learned. They where much more open to discussions after that and problems never ussually re-occured with any frequency.

That sounds very reasonable to me. Would that all parents knew their children as well, and took the time to have those talks. I think we'd see a big change in the number of kids who wind up committing crimes.

This is silly the end result isn't how you punish your children. If that works well for you great! Now imagine someone coming to you and saying "You are not allowed to discipline your children in that fashion anymore. From now on when they misbehave you are to give them a treat. That is the only acceptable way from this moment forward." Who has that right to tell you how to discipline your children? You assume that because some people decide to use corporal punishment that they do not know their children...you are wrong. Its great that this method works for you, but again it is your choice and right as a parent to punish your children as you see fit. Just as it is every parents right to do the same, but just because it works for you does not mean that everyone is required to hop on that bandwagon.

First of all no one has said give children a treat for misbehaving. What's ridiculous is the expectation that parents can do anything to their kids even if it hurts them without any interference whatsoever. Corporal punishment is rarely necessary, and usually ineffective. Taking the time to come up with an appropriate punishment when discipline is necessary is more effective because it helps children learn to deal with problems as they arise. Smacking them around simply teaches them to react to problems with violence and intimidation, not to mention being potentially dangerous. If you punish your child in such a way that they end up in the emergency room, as the 8 year old girl in the article did, then expect outside interference in how you raise your kids.

It was a hypothetical question regarding the treat, and you know it. You just attempted to circle the question because you know the answer as well as I do. You would tell the person to blow it out a southern hempispherical orafice. Then stating that everyone who employs corporal punishment beats their children to a bloody pulp is simply being disingenuous. Time outs, I would have laughed at that punishment...oh sure I would have put on the proper face of "Oh woe is me! Being punished in such a harsh way...oh world why are you so cruel!" Its no wonder that children these days are spoiled, unmannered, disrespectful, and unruly little drama queens.

Where did I say that everyone who employs corporal punishment beats their children to a bloody pulp? I'll tell you exactly where, no where, because I never said it. What's the matter you can't come up with an actual response to the claim that children respond better to reason and respect than to being smacked around, so you have to make things up? Interesting. I'm assuming from your claim that you would have laughed at time outs that your parents used corporal punishment, and look how well mannered you turned out. Also interesting. Rude and dishonest, wow, corporal punishment certainly worked for you.

You implied it, you can deny it all you like but it reads pretty simple. You chastizing me on manners...Oh No I felt that hit. You are rude and narrowminded and think you have it all figured out, when you demonstrate knowing absolutely nothing. You are one of these young mothers that thinks that no one else knows how to raise kids, but thankfully you came along as the worlds salvation to all parenthood. Rejoice, rejoice! I'll take a pass on your personal instruction, I would rather my children grow up properly.

Young mother? The oldest kid I raised is 24, hardly young or inexperienced, I've been at this for over 18 years now. Look, justify physical intimidation all you like. I know from experience it's ineffective, unnecessary, and just damages the parent/child relationship. There are other, better ways to raise decent thoughtful adult people. If you're too lazy to bother, and just feel the need to perpetuate a violent circle that began in your childhood, then fine. Just don't be surprised when your grandchildren are being smacked and acting out because of it. Or, as you put it, laughing and deceiving as to the impact of parental punishment. BTW, I gave up any form of corporal punishment many years back, and all of my children have "grown up properly". Like I said, if you're you're too lazy to bother with a better way, that's your problem, not mine.

Yup that must be it we are all to lazy thats why we utilize corporal punishment. So lets see if we have this straight..We are all just to lazy, we all just enjoy beating our children to bloody pulps, and you are in the running for mother of the year...nay the century! If that works for you as I stated earlier...GREAT! Fortunately most of us with common sense do "not" have to subscribe to everything you attempt to think is the right way. We can at this moment raise our children as "we" see fit. Just as you have that option as a parent...we also retain our rights for now to punish and reward our children as we see fit, and no one not even people so fully wrapped up into themselves can at this time tell us we have to do any differently.

Exaggerate much? gee, I wonder why it makes you so angry to hear the suggestion that corporal punishment isn't the best or only way to raise kids? Perhaps because you know the truth of it.

I believe it was you that suggested anything other than corporal punishment resulted in rude, ill-mannered little monsters who don't "grow up properly". What's the matter, can't stand to be shown otherwise? Does evidence to the contrary make you doubt your violence? Good, it should.

Ok so now seeing that attempting to twist what you said around failed miserably you are going to try and twist what I said around...I'm pretty sure you will have the same amount of success. I would concentrate less on what you perceive as proper punishment for your children and concentrate on something a lot more important that your children hopefully will get from somewhere. Morality and honesty there seems to be a crisis there.

Ok so now seeing that attempting to twist what you said around failed miserably

Yes, you're attempt to twist what I said around did fail miserably.Especially the part where you claimed I correlated physical punishment with "beating a child bloody".

As to your accusation that I was doing the same to you I refer you back to your own words:

Its no wonder that children these days are spoiled, unmannered, disrespectful, and unruly little drama queens.

and:

I would rather my children grow up properly.

As to this:

Morality and honesty there seems to be a crisis

It certainly seems that you have a problem with that, indeed. Perhaps you should concentrate on correcting your own character and addressing your rather aggressive need to justify corporal punishment before you begin attempting to correct others. Just a suggestion.

Hey if thats what lets you sleep at night you just go for it. You are definitely in the wrong and both you and I know it. I pity you and your children.

Your need to condescend speaks volumes. You go right ahead and pity me and my happy successful children with whom I have a wonderful relationship. It'll get you just about as far as smacking your kids around will. Have a good one. :D

I am absolutely sure you have a wonderful relationship with your children, you do not hold them accountable for their actions and they know they can get away with murder. I'm sure to them you are a 5 star mom. That is after all what it is all about isn't it...being pals with your children. All of us yet again that employ corporal punishment don't have good relationships with our kids, oh woe is us why wern't you around to teach us Oh Great One! Again we can pass, we will take the love of our children with the respect they give us and others by actually teaching them right from wrong and caring about their growth as responsible members of society. Don't worry about that issue...MacDonalds needs workers as well.

Again with the assumptions. In your small strange world the only way to hold a child responsible is to smack them around? If you can't come up with anything better, again I say that is your problem, not mine. Your extreme anger over this is ridiculous. You should probably examine it's roots. You pretend to speak for some "we" as if you represent all parents who employ corporal punishment. Why the need for false grandeur, I wonder? Why the need to make yourself seem more than you are? Could it be that you are aware that aggression and intimidation have already damaged your relationship with your children and so you must make attacks on anyone who chooses to do things differently and to offer the possibility that there is a better way? It certainly seems so. Even here you attempt to use intimidation and false assumptions to cow me into silence. It apparently makes you quite upset that you've finally come up against someone who doesn't respond to that methodology. How sad for you that the only manner you can seem to interact with the world, even on a discussion board where people simply express their opinions and views, is with aggression, anger and attempts to belittle and intimidate. If your children have managed to succeed in the world it speaks to the strength of their characters in overcoming a bully of a parent. I, for one, never give in to bullies and intimidation, and that seems to make you froth at the mouth. Froth away, little bully, I hope it brings you some strange sense of enjoyment.

Yup our strange world you nailed us yet again. I do not get enjoyment from correcting the mentally unstable, as I stated you people have my pity as well as your children. They are the ones that will truly suffer due to your lack of proper parenting.

Frothing at the mouth...I guess you would be an expert at that seeing how anyone who does not subscribe to your parenting techniques is definitely in the wrong. I bet you've never been wrong about anything have you? Your just a regular June Cleaver. Again I'll pass.

Pity away, little bully, we're doing quite well. Pass? You can't seem to pass. You continue to attempt to demean and bully simply because I refuse to agree with you that smacking kids is an acceptable form of punishment.

I do not get enjoyment from correcting the mentally unstable

So self correction on your part is definitely out of the question. Gotcha.

LOL you are hillarious...and yet you still sidestep the issue. My main contention has always been that no one has the right to tell you how to raise your children...even you...imagine that! All you have done is demonstrated your proclivity for "twist, spin, twist, spin" I recommend you prove your age and maturity level even more with your childish little "Gotcha" maybe add a "Neener, neener, neener!" in there. Back to fantasyland June.

Seriously, the only one twisting things here is you. However I responded early on to your claim that no one can tell you how to raise your children when I said if a form of punishment lands your child in the emergency room, as was the case in article, expect the government to get involved. Despite the discussion of the relative merits of corporal punishment no one has the unfettered right to harm their children uninterrupted. Apparently the only fantasyland here is the one you inhabit where people can send their kids to the emergency room because of the punishments they use and no one will even think to look into it. In general most parents can choose their path without expectation of interference. However if they harm their children then the government does indeed have the right to "tell them how to raise their kids", and not just the right but the responsibility as well. The same people who holler "The gubmint ain't got no right to tell me how to raise my younguns" are the ones who also want to know where the government was when a child dies from some horrific form of abuse that should have been noticed by someone somewhere. Hospitals and schools operate under the legal obligation to report suspected child abuse. Use of soap to the extent that vomiting and diarrhea are severe enough to frighten the mother into going to the emergency room qualifies.

You truly enjoy playing one side of the fence don't you? Why don't you enlighten us about how many false claims are made every year concerning abuse? How many are accused by children and then convicted without one shred of evidence physical or otherwise? Surprise there that you do not know. You do not want to know it does not fit into your narrowminded and self demonstrated use of redneck vernacular or redneck thinking, which is the one thing you have stated that truly defines exactly what kind of person you are and I can totally believe about you. Ready for your enlightenment? No? Well allow me anyways...over 1.7 million cases a year and growing. Most of these false accusations made by children to school teachers and officials who know absolutely nothing concerning these childrens home lives. Most of these children make these outcries for nothing more than being denied such important things such as "No, you cannot wear those shoes!" or "No you cannot go to that concert!" You know those items you would refer to as life altering and experiences that must be defended no matter the cost. This is the result of your "soft love" approach. Its always funny in a sad sort of way, in court to see when a false accusation has been levied against one such as you and your ilk. The funny thing about it is to see how fast all of a sudden your own rules no longer apply to you yourself, and the schools and government you so recently touted become your most dire foes. Laws such as "Megans Law" etal provide no legal defense once the outcry is made, regardless of the truth and there being no factual muchless tangible evidence in hand.

You are nothing more than a fraud that will defend those policies you yourself see fit to endorse and the truth be damned. You after all must be able to provide for your familes no matter who is hurt. So you continue to live in fantasy and convince yourself you are a "great" parent June. To bad somewhere a long that line reality will have to come into play sooner or later.

Mighty self righteous aren't you? So because some have lied all should suffer. Children should just be left in abusive situations because some kids weren't totally honest. 1,460 children die each year in America from child abuse. That's DIE, not just abused, but die from it. That number is 42% of the total that die in industrialized countries from child abuse every year.

Here's a few more facts for you: Each year, in almost half of all confirmed cases of child abuse, children do not receive any type of service to prevent re-abuse. 40-50% of all children who die from abuse and neglect in our country had previous referrals to agencies mandated by law to protect them.The CPS philosophy of reunifying abused children with their offender leads to abusive families recycling through protective services systems. Family/domestic courts often fail to recognize legitimate allegations of child abuse in child custody cases and are insensitive to the best interest of the child.

Here's a particularly interesting statistic:

Studies indicate that malicious false child abuse allegations made in bad faith occur [approximately] 2%-5% of the time.

2-5% of the time. Do you comprehend what that means? It means that 95-98% of child abuse accusations are accurate.

But, hey, who cares right? No interference! That's the way to go. Even for cases like this:

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/16172576/detail.html

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080320/NEWS/803200324

http://www.mamadivas.com/2008/10/horrific-case-of-child-abuse-in-carnation-wa-how-could-anyone-cause-their-child-so-much-suffering

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/Jun/18/officials-try-to-learn-why-toddler-beaten-to/

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/Jun/18/officials-try-to-learn-why-toddler-beaten-to/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348055,00.html

http://wcbstv.com/local/boy.beaten.death.2.742809.html

http://www.pro8news.com/home/breaking/62695227.html

So, please, do not attempt to feed me that pity party bull-shyte of the poor misaccused parents who make up less than 5% of all abuse allegations in an attempt to support the idea of non-interference. You go ahead and continue to support smacking kids as a form of discipline and total non-interference on the part of the government, just don't expect me to buy it. I live in the real world, and I have seen first hand what angry parents and step-parents do to their kids, and the price the children pay. I know better, I've lived better. If you don't want to bother and want to try and spout non-interference bull, go right ahead. Luckily for the many thousands of children abused every year cooler and more intelligent heads prevail when it comes to making laws.

Because some have lied? ROFLMAO! Then you post 8 links to show abuse that actually does have a little pesky thing called well...evidence maybe...Hmmm 8 links compared to 1.7 million false claims. Oh boy you sure showed me! But the really funny thing about those links are these were not examples of corporal punishment. They are from derainged individuals. Oh wait thats right you like to group everyone who does not subscribe to your simplistic and narrowminded view of the world as derainged...my bad, please continue so I may again not take you seriously. I really thought you were just going to continue to bore the he** out of me. But I'm big enough of a man to admit a mistake, you definitely are not boring me, but the amusement factor is through the roof!

One quick question. I thought you were against corporal punishment? Just trying to figure out where those more intelligent heads are going to come from. Haven't seen that demonstrated yet. You live in a fairytale of your own device, so spare me any rhetoric about you living in reality.

Your intelligence level again shows when you cite your little 2-5% figure. Which of course...and I know this will come to no big surprise to you...but again, you are wrong. The 1.7 million figure is the figure of factual false claims, those with no evidence to support the claim. But seeing some of the other ridiculous manure you have fabricated into your little fantasy world guess you can continue to do so. Problem is...you are not convincing anyone. Shocker there as well.

All I have is your word for it that 1.7 million false allegations are made each year. None of the statistics or reports I have read quote any such number. But that's okay, I didn't expect anything better from someone so aggressively in support of physical violence towards children and opposed to any interference that would prevent or curtail it. The only person I'm not convincing here is you, because you are angrily and aggressively opposed to even the thought of handling children without physical violence. The only thing I'm doing here is making sure you understand that you aren't convincing nor intimidating me to support your violent path. You have flipped your wig from angrily opposing my suggestions that there is a better way to raise children than corporal punishment all the way to defending complete non-interference even when children wind up in the E.R. or are abused seriously enough to lead to death. That's pretty sick.

Yup you nailed us again! I know when my oldest daughter comes for a visit we all sit around and watch VHS tapes of the two times in her life that she actually received a spanking and her subsequent visits to the E.R. after I and my wife had gotten our jollies as we abused her with unrestrained glee and maniac laughter. Are you like this psychic? Or did you channel Miss Cleo? Is that also how you came to the conclusion that I am the only person you have not been able to convince?

Regarding your not believing the 1.7 million figure. I understand the difficulty you would have with this. Its a relatively simple procedure...you put the little arrow icon in what we call a Search Box then you type something like False Accusations of Child Abuse Statistics. Then you either hit enter or you can hit the little teenie itsy bitsy magnifying glass and wallah! Am I going to fast for you here? Or I guess it could be one of two other reasons as well, either your just to lazy or you are afraid the truth will hurt widdle ole you. You can just answer yes if you like.

You will also be surprised that a good portion of these false accusations are from a little symptom called Malicious Spouse Syndrome. Its like when a woman goes out knowing full well that her husband is allergic to cats and brings one home anyways for example. Or when a divorced wife will help encourage children to make a false allegation against her ex spouse to attempt to get even for an argument or slight.

"Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned," spoken by Zara in Act 3, Scene 2. The Mourning Bride (1697) William Congreve

Whats really sick is that there are women just like you all across the globe that will attempt weakly to justify anything or make up baseless accusations to try and prove their nonsense views regardless if the innocent fall. Of course you really have not proven anything except that.

So if you don't mind I'll keep flipping my wig, at least I can lay claim to actually having a head on my shoulders and the ability to actually think. Whats your excuse?

I did that very thing, typed false child abuse accusations right in the tool bar. I know it makes you feel better about yourself to belittle others (how sad), unfortunately for you those who disagree with you aren't really as stupid as you would like to believe. Never found anything that said 1.7 million false allegations are made every year. If the statistic is true, then simply provide a link to your source. It's really very easy. If it's not true then own up to it.

You continue to try and demean my intelligence while attempting to justify defense of non-interference in child abuse cases. And you feel you can think? You are overemotional, angry and aggressive in your defense of child abuse. Did you abuse your kids when spanking? Probably not. But that in no way supports a defense of non-interference in cases of real child abuse. Defending that stance is sick, for all of the reasons I have laid out.

You claim to have only spanked your daughter twice in her life. This tells me that non-violence and non-intimidation was your standard way of dealing with her, (unless you spent the rest of the time yelling and threatening her)and yet my suggestion that this is the way to deal with children on a regular basis was met by your extremely angry and condescending behavior. Out of the blue I might add, during a conversation I had with another poster which ended pretty well. You traversed the path from first making fun of my discussion about using exactly your regular methods all of the time (giving kids treats for misbehavior) to literally defending child abusers because some allegations may be false.

I'm not sure why you are such an angry, irrational person, belittling others instead of merely discussing, and I really don't care. There is no defense for landing your kid in the E.R. as a result of a punishment (as was the case in this article). There is no excuse for defending child abuse, and non-interference of the proper authorities in cases of suspected child abuse.

Belittle, demean, scream and pull your hair out if you want, you will never convince me to stand in defense of child abuse.

Statistic source, if it's real. Thanks.

I have tried to belittle and demean? Why would I have to do what you yourself have done to yourself? Trust me you didn't need any help from me to accomplish that. Just again as your last line does oh so well as you once "again" make your infamous generalizations that everyone who believes in corporal punishment is guilty of child abuse. Back to work June, you need to try harder.

No I guess my daughters must just simply be a little brighter. They did something that might be foriegn to one such as yourself...they learned. As well as to the fact that there comes an age where corporal punishment is inappropriate. But people like you concentrate on the before rather than how we choose to punish later. You do not even consider thinking rationally, the blinders you wear prevent that from happening.

Again do your own research or remain ignorant...its a simple choice...really it is and keep in mind. I am not one of your children you can manipulate or bully into anything. Here endeth the lesson.

Pretty much what I figured, can't back it up, can't admit that you used non-violent methods almost all of the time, and can't admit that defending child abusers is atrocious. Nice talking to you. @@

Yup you got me, that must be it. You are just way to bright for us dumb parents without the benefit of your keen insights. You are a true legend in your own mind. Curious though I have one question that maybe you being the new Dr. Spock of the new era might be able to answer. When your children bereft of proper parenting go out and vandalize or beat up a minority for kicks...is that a 10 minute time out or a 30 minute?

Never had that problem, because they were taught to respect all people, as I respect them and they respect me. The whole non-violent, non-intimidation approach to child rearing has taught them better ways than violence to deal with interpersonal relationships. Nice try, though. Perhaps smacking your kids led them to behave that way, but we've never had that issue in 18 years of child rearing. Your unmitigated aggression and mischaracterization simply isn't working out too well for you. Maybe it's time for a different path.

I agree maybe it is time for a different path...try coming to Earth maybe or that pesky little place called reality. I am absolutely sure your children are just the perfect little angels June, at least to your face. I would have loved having a parent like you naive and gullible...your perfect!

Again with assumptions and mischaracterizations. Your total dishonesty is disturbing, especially when combined with your egoism. I'm certainly sorry for whatever your life's problems are that lead you to behave this way, but again your choices are not my problem.

:D

Gracias, Tony.

Really don't care if she gives an inch or not Tony. I see women like her enough in court. I simply just cannot stand a fraud.

Then it must be very difficult for you to shave each morning.

Sounds like you are speaking from experience there. Does your husband have you shave your beard and mustache often? Or is it just simply more of your "redneck" DNA thats considered acceptable over thar?

:~D

*snerk*

Still no legitimate points to offer? Of course not, there are no legitimate reasons to support non-interference in child abuse cases. Especially for someone who claims to have been involved in family court, or was that implication entirely facetious?

Still to lazy to do obvious research or just choosing to remain ignorant? All my points are legitimate and factual...I can understand where you would have problems with either point.

Yup, you nailed me again you are just way to bright for these forums. I've often heard its best to humor people such as yourself, to do otherwise can be dangerous.

It is incumbent upon the claimant to offer all necessary support for his/her arguments. You have been unable or unwilling to do so, invalidating your claims of legitimacy. That is your laziness. I looked, and found not one single source for your claimed numbers, and am forced to consider them made up. If you care to change my mind all you have to do is post evidence of said claim. I have repeatedly asked for this, you have repeatedly refused, resorting to a song and dance of rant and ridicule, that while humorous, really serves no purpose. You have chosen to side with non-interference in cases of real child abuse, and with the concept of physically intimidating persons smaller than yourself into obedience. I understand your frustration that the method you have chosen does not work with me, or probably with most other adults, but I don't sympathize with it.

Stating factual contentions needs no proof, it is simply the truth and one cannot invalidate the truth. No matter how well you believe yourself capable of doing otherwise.

Again my fine Mensatic reject of a friend with the generalizations? That never gets old does it? Everyone who does not agree with you is arbitrarily either a sexual predator or a purveyor of child abuse. This of course is why you are not, nor will ever be taken seriously. Show me one instance where I have condoned "actual" child abuse? Oh wait you can't can you? Just more nonsense hyperbole from a ridiculous source.

Other adults? Are you grouping yourself in that assumption? You have a very long way to go before that statement will bear fruit.

SOP for the making of arguments. "Facts" require supporting evidence. But, then again, I never really expected you to be capable of supplying such. Your repeated claims that I am "wrong" when I suggest corporal punishment is not necessary or effective discipline, and that landing your kid in the E.R. because of the method of "discipline" chosen creates justified interference from authorities is your support for non-interference in actual child abuse cases and for the use of physical intimidation. Are you now attempting to claim that you support interference on the part of authorities when faced with child abuse allegations? I truly hope you are. Do you feel that authorities should investigate child abuse allegations, or do you still claim that parents retain the right to discipline their children as they see fit, no matter where that may lead, even if it is the emergency room?

Yes, you are wrong when you state that corporal punishment is not necessary. That is "your" opinion and pure conjecture on your part. How many times have my children been to the E.R. due to corporal punishment? How many times did I end up in the E.R. due to corporal punishment? Again this proves nothing more than narrowminded ignorance on a subject in which you demonstrate no knowledge. That is of course unless you have how would you say it substantiated proof that all children who's parents enforce that particular discipline are indeed abused or neglected somehow. Yeah I didn't think so either.

Again you would paint a picture that all people who employ corporal punishment would like to block actual cases of child abuse. You are a pretty sick individual to have to stoop so low to attempt to prove your point. You know why you have to stoop that low? Because you yourself realise how ridiculous your own arguments are, and the only way you actually feel you can make your points is by distorting and twisting the truth. Again, this is the only reason you and your children are the source of my pity. You cannot even be honest with yourselves, how do you expect others to see you in that light? Because we don't.

I see, my opinion is "wrong" and your opinion is "right". I expressed my opinion, which you immediately ridiculed with your "treat" analogy, and proceeded to argue against vehemently.

Again you would paint a picture that all people who employ corporal punishment would like to block actual cases of child abuse.

Not people, you, because you specifically claimed that parents retain the right to punish as they see fit, in light of this article where the child in question ended up in the emergency room. Do you now claim otherwise? Again, I truly hope you do, because landing a child in the emergency room via "punishment" is abuse.

It is every parents right to punish as they see fit. You do not speak for every parent. Again you are doing nothing more than twisting corporal punishment into abuse to attempt to suit your own arguments. What those people did was "not" corporal punishment. They were sick individuals period. But that doesn't matter to you, you will continue to add your twist and spin on it because you cannot even begin to validate your own arguments truthfully.

And once again seeing as how you have proven yourself incapable of understanding the thinking behind a rhetorical question I guess I'll have to simplify things for you. I'll use small words if that will help.

Someone (Schools, courts or the government.)tells you that you cannot utilize time outs or grounding and that the only acceptable punishment is to spank your children. Is that their right and would you follow that to the letter? I don't know about you but that seems pretty simple. But I do understand "your" confusion. No one has the right to tell you how you can or cannot discipline your children. If you carry it to far then it is a criminal matter and should be pursued as such. But again that is not corporal punishment when you carry it that far.

It is every parents right to punish as they see fit.... If you carry it to far then it is a criminal matter and should be pursued as such.

Ah, I see. In your own convoluted, determined to be arguing way, you do, finally, agree that if carried *too* far it is cause for interference. Now the only question remaining is, considering your claim that you only had to *spank* your daughter twice in her life, is an absence of corporal punishment a valid way to deal with children? After all it made up the absolute predominance of your interactions with your daughter, as described by you. It has been successful for many parents, myself included, is there any legitimate reason to believe that corporal punishment is an absolutely necessary component of child rearing?

No actually you see only two things..jack and (care to hazard a guess at the next word?) My daughter was bright enough to learn from the experience and knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that if she again broke the rules or acted unruly what the consequences were. In effect corporal punishment. You people only associate it with the physical aspect. Again, only to attempt to justify to yourselves. So to answer your last question...yes in my experience it is needed and as a responsible parent I will do whatever "I" deem necessary to raise my children as "I" see fit.

So, intimidation was your course of action, fine, your daughter obeyed from fear. Non-intimidation works for many, yet according to you it simply cannot in any way be a valid path. Yet it works, and well, for many. How do you explain this discrepancy between your *opinion* and the experience of many others? Does your *opinion* invalidate the experience of myself and other parents who have successfully raised healthy law abiding citizens without resorting to fear? According to you my children, and the children of any person who does not use corporal punishment *must* be *spoiled, unmannered, disrespectful, and unruly little drama queens* who don't *grow up properly*, and yet they aren't. How do you explain that?

You managed to let go of the claim that no form of punishment justifies interference by authorities, can you admit that others can and have raised decent children without corporal punishment?

Twist, spin, twist, spin...yeah thats what I said intimidation. Do you just feign ignorance?

Jesus H I cannot believe how undeniably dense you are. Do you remember when I said this?

If that works well for you great!

I'm pretty sure I remember saying it since well I was there when I said it. The only thing that has become conceded in this whole discussion has been your sanity, nothing more.

And yet you continued to characterize parents who don't use corporal punishment as abject failures, despite your *if that works for you* addition. But you didn't care for it too much when a little mischaracterization was done to you, did you? In fact it made you quite angry, even though it was very mild by comparison and didn't really stretch the truth very far. You interjected into my conversation with countrycomfort and your very first comment was an analogy to opposing corporal punishment that crosses over into an E.R. visit with wanting to "give children treats" for misbehavior, and immediately followed that up with a claim that children not exposed to corporal punishment "are spoiled, unmannered, disrespectful, and unruly little drama queens." You started this attack fest by misrepresenting what I said during my conversation with another poster, and you escalated it with your unreasonable and aggressive behavior. The behavior you dish out is very apparently not anything you are able to take. Which highlights two of my points:

1. We should treat others as we wish to be treated, even children.

and 2. Aggressive attempts at intimidation are ineffective and shut down the lines of communications.

Cooperation from fear is not ideal for many reasons, but one of these is that the little people we try to intimidate don't stay little for long. It's much better to teach them to deal with their problems with reason and calm, as opposed to unreasoning anger and attempts at intimidation.

In the end you have had to admit two things, that when corporal punishment is harmful outside authorities have a right and a responsibility to interfere, and that not using corporal punishment is a valid child rearing path, despite your many attempts to imply otherwise. The other thing that has become very apparent in our exchanges is that intimidation will only get you so far, and is therefore not a very useful tool.

Ok you are not feigning anything. How in hells creation do you get that I condemn anyone who doesn't use corporal punishment from this statement...

If that works well for you great!

The more I listen to your responses the more convinced I am becoming that there needs to be strict guidlines about who may or who may not procreate.

Do you teach your children to manipulate others words and lie as you do? Are these the lifes lessons you hold as valued and true? You are pathetic.

I haven't had to admit anything, good luck with that. Now the correct statement would be if you stated "I in my mentally derainged state will have you say to me that blah, blah, blah." Want to hold your breath, while waiting?

I didn't get it from that statement, I got it from these statements and the others like them that you made repeatedly:

*No wonder kids today are spoiled, unmannered, disrespectful, and unruly little drama queens*

*I'd rather my kids grow up properly*

I didn't manipulate anything you said, despite your repeated clumsy attempts to manipulate my comments, merely highlighted the hypocrisy of ranting against my opinion while insisting that yours was the only right way. Like I said, I'm glad you finally owned up to the fact that authorities should intervene when corporal punishment goes *too* far, and in your own twisted way to the idea that others have successfully done what you implied was impossible, to raise their kids well without the use of corporal punishment and fear.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Actually if I thought you knew anything even remotely close to the truth it might indeed hurt. Fortunately, I can feel good about myself and the stance I take because I at least can be honest when I state my views.

Just like this little tidbit here. I never stated that authorities should intervene when corporal punishment goes to far, but of course seeing as you are a confirmed liar who can only attempt to make her points by twisting and manipulating the words of others. Well you just have a good time with it. We expect nothing less from you.

I see, so you're back to pretending that abuse should not be intervened in, despite having said: "If you carry it to far then it is a criminal matter and should be pursued as such." in post 1.65? You can't seem to get your own stance straight. Not to mention returning to the strange habit of referring to yourself in the plural "we".

Again, I never manipulated anything you have said. I, perhaps, slightly mischaracterized your support, as expressed again in the post above, for non-intervention in cases if child abuse as direct support of child abuse. However that is not much of an exaggeration, supporting a parent's right to do anything at all to a child with no expectation of intervention is pretty much the same as direct support of child abuse. I'm glad you feel you can be proud of that stance. I personally find it extremely repugnant. So, you keep trying to justify that to yourself, or yourselves, as your use of the plural we indicates you view yourself, keep pulling your little Pol Pot dance of rage that anyone might suggest the same kind of bullying you have tried here combined with physical violence is really not the best way to raise children, if that's what it takes to make you happy.

Twist, spin, twist, spin. Mischaracterized, hey its your train Jesse you rob it as you see fit...and if it doesn't I am sure you have another excuse you can pull out of your endless bag of justification and rationalization.

Anything that you personally consider repugnant can't be anything but good. Seeing the demonstrations of your character that is, or rather lack of.

Yet again you misunderstand...shocker there. You think you have sent me into a "dance of rage"? Not hardly, you are just not even close to being up to that task. Again, you are a simple amusement. When I am dealing with liars it is an easy thing to be able to disregard, I just consider the source whence the intended insult comes.

Like again your broad generalization that you try once again to paint corporal punishment as a condoning of child abuse and anyone that believes in corporal punishment and advocates it as people who would interfere with actual cases of abuse. Again, pathetic. Twist, spin, twist, spin. Are you even trying anymore June? Or is that all we can expect from you...lies and distortions.

Anything that you personally consider repugnant can't be anything but good.

Defense of child abuse is good in your book, believe me you have made that abundantly clear.

all we can expect from you

All of "you" can expect exactly what you have gotten, the truth. Supporting any parents right to abuse children is repugnant, supporting complete non-interference is supporting abuse. It's pretty straightforward. There has been no need to twist anything you have said ( however many of you there are).

From your own posts:

I never stated that authorities should intervene when corporal punishment goes to far,

And yet earlier:

If you carry it to far then it is a criminal matter and should be pursued as such.

You twist your own comments and supposed "stances" just fine without any help from anybody else, of course your use of the plural "we" could explain your multiple views. Here's hoping it doesn't get too crowded in your head.

I suppose it's just entirely too much to expect that you make yourself clear.

No one has the right to tell you how you can or cannot discipline your children. If you carry it to far then it is a criminal matter and should be pursued as such. But again that is not corporal punishment when you carry it that far.

Do you know what a lie of omision is June? Well of course you do. Twist, spin, twist, spin. Yup June we love your demonstrations of the truth. Again are these the values you teach your children as well?

You: I never stated that authorities should intervene when corporal punishment goes to far

Again you: If you carry it to far then it is a criminal matter and should be pursued as such.

Do you understand what a straight out lie is? You contradicted yourself here. You claimed to have never said something you did in fact say. Your claim was that corporal punishment carried too far is a crime and should be pursued as such, and then you made the claim to have never said it at all. A lie is a lie is a lie. You might as well own it, it's in plain English recorded with a time and date stamp within the thread. The qualifier that corporal punishment carried too far becomes something else has no bearing on your statement that corporal punishment carried too far should be intervened in and your subsequent claim to have said no such thing. So, which is it? Either corporal punishment carried too far should be intervened in, or parents can do absolutely anything to their children without any interference whatsoever. Pick a stance.

Actually yes I do, Ive watched you post for more than a few days. So pretty sure I know what a lie is June.

So, you won't take a stance, then, Orville?

I have my stance and am comfortable with it. Will I take your misguided and distorted lies side? No. Why don't you just twist and spin it anyway you like June...after all thats what you would do anyways. I understand why you cannot stand on the truth, you just simply have no faith in your own convictions.

You have expressed two different stances, Orville, one saying corporal punishment taken too far should be intervened in, and another saying no parental choice of punishment should be intervened in. Please clarify which of these you actually consider to be your stance, as I have been unable to follow your erratic stance changes to an actual conclusion. I have been very clear as to what my stance is, ie. there is no need to ever hit a child for any reason whatsoever, a truly competent intelligent parent will be perfectly capable of raising decent thoughtful people without resorting to even mild physical violence. Where do you actually stand concerning "corporal punishment taken too far" as you expressed it. Are you afraid to make a committed decision, Orville?

So a confirmed liar states that I have taken two different stances...ewww that stings. Since you like to twist and spin your tales as you wish, why not say three or maybe five different stances? Is this where I am supposed to get all weepy eyed and fall down confessing the error of my ways because I support corporal punishment? I mean again this is your tale of fiction June. Do I get a time out now? I mean I do understand why you must lie June, you simply have no faith in your own convictions. Hence the need for fabrication. Sad.

I will continue to fight for parents rights and corporal punishment. You can keep teaching your children how to lie and to have no accountability. I'm good with it seeing as how you are definitely not one of those people of intelligence nor integrity and thereby being of no consequence or importance in the lives of myself nor my children.

No, Orville, this is where you are supposed to pick between your own two contradictory statements, if you are able.

Orville, you continue to make the claim that I am a liar, please back this claim up with evidence of lies I have supposedly told. I see no lies in my posts, feel free to point them out to me.

Fight all you wish, apparently fighting and hitting are the only ways you know to interact with the world. I will continue to stand by my conviction that hitting is unnecessary and wrong, especially when done to children. I've made myself clear, you have not. Please do so, if you have the capability, Orville.

Back up my claim? It is backed up...by every post you posted. Nothing more than what you believe to be clever little quips and innuendos with your twist and spin tactics. You have definitely made a few things clear, I'll give you that, lying is your preferred method of child rearing. Lies are how you choose to defend your ludicrous ideology, and manipulating and distorting the truth are the only ways you feel you can justify your pathetic reasoning. Maybe if your own parents would have enforced corporal punishment they wouldn't have raised such a blatant liar. Its not to late to break the chains and to go right June. Otherwise, sadly, your own children could end up just like yourself. Don't do that to them June, let them grow up right and with honesty and integrity.

Gee Orville, you must have had yourself very firmly in mind when you made that little rant. It's pretty much what I figured, Orville, you are completely incapable of intellectual honesty or of even making a consistent statement. You can't even back up a claim where the evidence you propose to have is directly above your head. Continue to smack people around, especially helpless children, as you have proven yourself incapable of dealing effectively with adults. Sayonara, au revoir, adiós, auf wiedersehen.

Oh no June you've wounded me again "eww ahh ohhh" that hurt so bad. LOL I think its impressive that you can lie in multiple languages. Very Nice! Again, you are not making the assumption that you are an intellectual much less an adult are you? Again, source considered...again, no value.